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Math: Gift from God or Work of Man?

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Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:40:00 - [1] Jesus They teach their kids this nonsense in Texas these days. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 12:55:00 - [2] Originally by: Cornucopian Originally by: Death Kill Jesus They teach their kids this nonsense in Texas these days. I'm not in the least bit surprised. Religions shouldnt take themselves so damn serious. It's wholly pathetic. as someone else said: we're just waiting till we can throw em all into the sun. bloody idiots. Well then THIS should knock your socks off. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:20:00 - [3] Originally by: Cornucopian Islam is 600 years younger than the rest of the monotheistic religions, they're still a bit behind. Like chirstians they are currently evolving multiple sects and splinter groups who demand a return to basics and the original meaning of the Koran/bible. What all knowing compendium states that it takes 'x' amount of years for a religion to reach anywhere? Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Cornucopian It's all a sham, a commercial venture stemming back to the pagan times when shamans sold spiritual currency to the tribes to earn themselves food Massive fail. Suicide bombers doesnt blow themselves up because they seek comercial opertunities, they do it because of the promise of rewards in the afterlife. The problem with religion is that people belive life here on earth is just the beginning of the 'real' life in heaven (or hell) When people kill in the name of religion they do it because they belive they have god on their side, and that their actions is just. The fanatic who slit the throat of Theo Van Gogh thought what he was doing was right. To say that 'oh they just need a few hundred years' is sticking your head in the sand. Back in medival times they didnt have modren science, they thought the sun evolved around the earth. That people in the year 2007 blindly follow bigoted norms fdating back to the bronzeage just shows how redicilously ignorant and dangerous they are. And finally, religons are different. You cannot compare Islam whows prophet was a bloodthirsty warlod with Christianity whos prophet was a hippie telling people to become mindless and spineless sheep. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:59:00 - [5] Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 14:59:48 Originally by: Cornucopian its the people who RUN the religion that do it for commerical gain, power, megalomania, etc. How do you know they are not just being pius, have they told you? How can you claim that the religious leaders who tell people to kill themselves in the name of religon doesnt have as strong faith as their followers. Its a bold claim you present. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:03:00 - [6] Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 15:04:34 Originally by: Locus Bey While I can understand your sweeping generalization, Mohammed wasn't a bloodthirsty warlord, and I hardly think you can extrapolate mindless and spineless sheep from the words of Jesus. What followers do with words and idolatry is one thing, the original message is another. Muhammed killed his way into power, and he killed everyone that stood in his way. The hisytory is there for you to look up if you think I'm wrong. Jesus taught you that you are nothing without him, and that you should shrivel up like a worthless worm and hope for the best when the end of days come. Quote: Religious belief is no more dangerous than political ideology, nationalistic fervour or immoral science. Ignorance exists in all areas, as does enlightened thought. Science don't forget has developed the bomb, chemical weapons and GM crops, to name a few Yes religious belief is a lot more dangerous. If you are conveniced that you are good and others are bad then you got a dangerous situation. A non beliver would be able to change his or her mind based on what they see or hear but thats not an option for a beliver because they follow not their own free will but dangerous ideals froma lost era printed in stone. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 16:42:00 - [7] Originally by: Locus Bey the god of science and ratiomalism See. You dont even know what you are talking about. Atheism isnt a dogma, its a way of thought. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 16:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Locus Bey People don't really put faith in science itself science isnt about faith. Religious people have faith, science is about facts. Quote: What I'm getting at is we in this age put our faith in science, in much the same way we put our faith in God. Thats the worst thing I have ever heard. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 17:03:00 - [9] Aye it was brilliant <3 Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 04:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Locus Bey Atheism can be a dogma. How many people posting in this thread believe in atheism? No no no no noooooooooooooooooo! Atheism is a conclusion based on reason and logic, and if reason or logic or even evidence pointed in the direction of theism we would no longer be atheists. You are using pure semantics. Faith..when it comes to religions, means irrational beliefs.So if I have 'faith in the fellow man' or your mom's cooking, it has nothing to do with believing in unprovable, highly improbable and with no evidence. Quote: About facts? At what point in our scientific investigation of quantum physics have we been dealing with fact? How many times has 'current' scientific theorum been overturned in favour of a new discovery? Looking at quantum physics the parallels with more esoteric explanations of life are considerable, and the deeper into the rabbit hole the more so. Creationists belive humans walked the earth with the dinosaurs, and that the planet is 6000 years old. Sceince know for a fact through carbon dating that its much much older. Call to arms!!!

Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 04:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Locus Bey We have no proof Jesus or any other prophet was not divine. Would you consider the actions of Mother Theresa, St Francis of Assissi, the Dalai Lama or institutions like the Salvation Army to be bad? You have no evidence it was divine either. To say that 'you have no evidense for the oposite so that must mean it is plausible' is stoneage thinking....and its frightening anyone in 2007 is willingly being that stupid. You cant prove that Tor or Odin is divine, nor can you prove that Budha is divine, you cant prove that the pink unicorn isnt divine wither....but since you happen to be born where you are born my (presumably) Christian parents you chose one out of many irrational things. Regarding Mother Teresa read THIS Quote: Wouldn't they exemplify the canons of their faith? It is to easy to point to the failings of religion as justification for why spiritual belief is illogical. The same can be said for science. Should we take science on the measuring of heads? The building of weapons? Thalidomyde? GM crops? Who is to say in 100, 200 years we won't consider the theory of Evolution illogical? As it stands it is best 'known' theorum. Sceince has nothing to do with morality. Science is a tool. When scientist buildt the atom bomb they did so because they were solving difficult tasks. When the inquisition tortured and killed people they did so BECAUSE they were hristian, BECAUSE their faith dictated them to do so. Quote: Back to GM crops. It is in many ways indicative of science. We are beginning to allow and invest in methods of crop production across the globe based upon unproved science. What's more we ignore the negative ramifications, in favour of an 'easy' solution. This happens time and time again in science, just look at the pharmaceutical industry, aluminium in the water, antibiotics, uranium. It is not just GM's fault for being immoral bastards, it is governments and institutions using said science, to potentially devastating effects. Its scientist who do the science, and politicians who uses it. Its like blaming the car makers for someone doing a hit and run. This argument of yours is a feeble atempt, strawman at best. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 05:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Amarria Black FTFY. Some of us creationists believe that the planet is billions of years old. And again, taking something as fact because someone else told you so is faith. so you are a creationist? Funny how the rest of your 'kind' thinks the oposite. Your argument is that something as complex cant have been created by natural selection and evolution, that is have to have some type of creator......but with that argument you shot yourself in the foot as 'god' is even more complex and who created him? Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 05:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Locus Bey Your really beginning to ** me. Atheism is no more a conclusion of logic and reason than spiritual belief is. You compare people walking on water, people getting ressurected from the dead and divine intervention with conclusions based on observation and testing. You are clearly deluded. Quote: Your experience of the world, science and 'spirituality' is your experience, not mine. Your arse is so backed up with the belief that modern philosophical logic immediately discounts religious logic and belief that you are just as extreme as the religious zealot. The very fact that you compare religion and science as somehow equals shows just how little you know about the nature of science. I dont know what mentalist school you went to, and I dont know what insane teachers you had but you should know that in the secular, enlightened world what you say is perceived to be utter stupidity and a pervesion of the progress we as a species has made for the past 100 years. Quote: Your ** poor example of creationism and dinosaurs goes in no way to explain current quantum physics exploration, nor its parallels with the more esoteric sciences. Have you read Rumi or Ibn Arabi who talk of evolution 400 years before Darwin? How many years have you explored Tibetan Tantric Buddhism? Not every spiritual logic is predicated on some simple creation myth. Perhaps you would like to come up with some 'proper' argumetns of creationism then? I eagerly await for you to lay your head on the slab. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 05:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Icheckjitamarketlol Seriously though, the scientific theory also has a hole in it.. the Big Bang theory says a ****ton of matter blew outwards in all directions, and thus the universe started. But where did the matter come from? The creation of the universe is just not something us humans are equipped to imagine - The creationist story doesn't tell us where God came from, and the Big Bang theory doesn't tell us where the matter that went bang came from. All true. But that does mean that its more likaly that it was all created by a heavenly dictator with us in mind? The god theory is based on 'because it says so in the bible/Koran'.....wich by modern standards isnt very convincing. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 06:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Amarria Black I'm a creationist. That doesn't mean that I sieze up and quote Genesis whenever you ask a hard question. It just means that there's enough compelling evidence for me to believe that someone or something, somewhere, had a hand in putting the universe in its current state. No. It means you twist and turn science into pseudo sceince to fit in the image you have created for yourself that there is a creator that created the vastness of space with us in mind. Lack of evidence that there is no god, doesnt make his existance anymore likaly. Quote: I'm still waiting for someone to explain why our infinite-timeline universe isn't currently in a state of heat death, or how our finite-timeline universe came to be in absence of external influence. Ask cosmologists, not creationists. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 06:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Locus Bey I can tell by your arrogant reply you have little, if any knowledge of spiritual practice outside of the Christian religion. You also seem to lack any philosophical knowledege, as the arguments I have used sit perfectly fine in the realms of modern philosophy. I gather also you haven't beeen paying attention to quantum physics either else you would understand the reference, and current thought in that area. Sceince and philosophy is two different things. You are confused. If you want to discuss philosophy sometimes start a thread, I would be happy to join. Quote: Your attempts to reduce my argument to a basic interpretation of the Christian religion is pathetic, and again reinforces your lack of understanding, and inability to argue out of your depth (suck on that one ) Pathetic? Reinforces MY lack of understanding? You are the one arguing backed by pseudo-scince and a genuine distortion of pretty much everything. You can label me how you like, but it wont give your backwords theories anymore wind in their sails. Quote: I'll try and give more basic references in the future, as it is obvious those I have cited from other religious traditions are not something you are aware of, and thus it is unfair for me to expect you to understand. You are right. I have big problems understanding how anyone can look at the stars at night and belive it was all created by a dictator with us in mind. You are completely right on that one. Quote: I never compared walking on water or any of the other made up assumptions you miraculously produce. You compare the essence of it. Quote: Your knowledge of the human condition is apparently fairly robotic, and unaware of much that goes on outside in the big wide world. Just because secular science in the major has failed to investigate doesn't make it false. Doesnt make it true either. Why dont you put your money where your mouth is and come up with some actual arguments backed up by some type of evidence? Quote: Where it has investigated, eg. meditational and psychological practice, there have been very interesting discoveries. Healing from prayers, deamons out and all of that? What discoveries, please priovide some sources. Quote: It will be very interesting the further science goes into physics how much of the exploration has been paralled before in may of the ancient traditions, sufi, yogic and tibetan for example. eh....no. I hope for your sake you are not being serious. Quote: And your 100 years of secular science means what if an unenlightened ape like yourself sits in his logic bubble unaware of thousand of years of exploration? I prefer the term primate myself. This thousand years of exploration you mention, what is it? What do you base it on, are you just like the rest of the loony squad talking sheer nonsense again? Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 06:13:00 - [17] Edited by: Death Kill on 05/10/2007 06:13:29 Originally by: Amarria Black I didn't say anything about the universe being created with us in mind. We very well could be an anomaly. We could be immaterial to the true purpose with which the universe was created. You confuse me. So god created us out of sheer accident? Wont that make all religions irrelevant? Quote: . Oh, and in case I haven't mentioned it today: YOU ARE A TROLL, AND A POOR ONE. How does this work in favour of creationism? Sure you dont mean 'heretic'? Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 07:37:00 - [18] Edited by: Death Kill on 05/10/2007 07:38:09 Originally by: Amarria Black Quite possibly, and absolutely. You're confusing creationism with religion. The only ones promoting creationism is the religious. You will find no serious biologists or physisists who will support it. Creationism is NOT a common theory, it is only found within the bible belt in the USA. Quote: I hold the stance that someone or something had a hand in the current state of affairs. Judeo-Christians believe that this someone is specifically YHWH, who lives in Heaven, and may or may not chill with his mirror-self/progeny Jesus. I merely postulate the what. Religion goes past this and into the who, when, how, and why. Yes, and its all based on no credible evidence. Its based on eye witnesses, personal revolations and faith. Imagine how it would be if science took that approach. Dr. Stephen Hawkins had a private revolation that the earth was in orbit around the sun Dr. Stephen Hawkins calls on all faithfull Hawkinians to accept the fact that the earth is in orbit around the sun See where I'm going with this? Quote: A fact doesn't have to be a supporting fact of a specific stance to be valid. It can stand on its own merit. Not in this case. sorry. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 07:40:00 - [19] Originally by: Amarria Black Due to the high-order state of the current known universe, it's more probable that the point of origin was a purposeful act than a random one Only troll here is you Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 09:10:00 - [20] Originally by: ReaperOfSly My understanding of maths is not shallow. I'm a 3rd year university maths student, and in 2 years I will literally be a "master of mathematics". Congratulations. I think this calls for some photoshop! You seen that image 'master of the obvious'? we need to make you something similar only with mathematics. Call to arms!!!

Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 12:48:00 - [21] Locus Bey, thats philosophy not science. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 14:59:00 - [22] Originally by: ReaperOfSly No, I haven't. I'll google it later maybe. I wasn't being big-headed by the way, I was responding to an accusation that my understanding of maths is shallow. Sorry if I came across as a ****, but I can't stand people who spout crap about stuff they know nothing about. No no no not at all. Not at all. Take a look at the Picture Its pretty cool. what I ment was that we need a picture of 'master of mathmatics'. It was supposed to be a compliment. I wish I was as gifted in maths as you Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 15:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Locus Bey Your argument that art has flourished since the decline of religion is just bull****. No its not. Religion has always been a big brother in terms of artistic freedom. Applying limits to artists...and artists had to be carefull not to appear 'blasphemic' in order to not end up burning at the stake. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 15:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Locus Bey I guess there is no oppression under Communist China Is that supposed to speak in your favour? No one is denying the fact that both comunism AND religion applies limits to freedom....besides the religious that is. Quote: And I also guess that in 14c Spain, the moguls of India, and periods under the Ottomans resulted in a lack of artistic freedom Art has been around since year dot, to claim that religion is the cause of artistic ills is crap. No its not. Your reply just shows you dont know anything about art either. You may look at a cathedral and say 'oh religion does not limit art' but the fact is anyone that presented any art that was not 'according to god' were punished if they were considered heretics. I'd like to see paintings such as THIS and THIS be published a few houndred years ago. Ofcorse it would be impossible as the artist would have been decleared a heretic posessed by satan...tortured and killed. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 15:29:00 - [25] lol Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 15:58:00 - [26] Edited by: Death Kill on 05/10/2007 15:58:37 Originally by: Locus Bey You mean like this or this? So lets see, its now religion, political, and cultural oppression we need to worry about. The references I made were not relating to cathedrals, but periods in history under religious governance where societies flourished artistically and with diversification. Hieronymus Bosch, (latinized, actually Jheronimus Bosch; his real name Jeroen van Aken) (c. 1450 û August 9, 1516) [1] was a prolific Early Netherlandish painter of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Many of his works depict sin and human moral failings. Bosch used images of demons, half-human animals and machines to evoke fear and confusion to portray the evil of man. No wonder he didnt get executed. He pleased the Church. He was just a mindless tool, and not a true artist. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.05 16:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Locus Bey Doesn't look any different to the paintings you showed Yes it is. Quote: And your a judge of true artists? Man of many talents you are Yes I am. Call to arms!!!

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